"The Gods of New York" On the New Yorkers Podcast! - With Jonathan Mahler

[00:00:00] Speaker A: This episode of the New Yorkers Podcast is brought to you by newyork100.org recognizing excellence across New York City's five boroughs. Hello everyone and welcome to the New Yorkers the podcast by New York City Cop. I am your host, Kelly Kopp, published photographer, New York City tour business owner, real estate content creator, podcaster, and above all else, a New Yorker. Ladies and gentlemen, the next Brooklyn bound train in Valheim. [00:00:29] Speaker B: Stand clear of the closing doors. [00:00:46] Speaker A: This is Times Square or. [00:00:55] Speaker B: Bradford is. [00:00:56] Speaker A: Available to the shovel to grab the cycle. Foreign with me today, I have Jonathan Mahler. He is a staff writer for the New York Times Magazine. His sports journalism has been featured in the book the Best American Sports Writing. And he is the author of two books, ladies and gentlemen, the Bronx is Burning as well as the Challenge. And his third book, the Gods of New York is available now wherever you buy books. But above all else, he is a New Yorker. Hey, Jonathan, welcome to the show. How are you today? [00:01:31] Speaker B: I'm great. Thanks for having me here. [00:01:33] Speaker A: We're so honored to have you joining us today and talk about your amazing book. And Jonathan, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself, where you're from, what you do, things like that. [00:01:45] Speaker B: Yeah, so I was born in New York and then. Yeah, what borough? I was born in Manhattan. Yeah, my father grew up in the Bronx. He was, you know, grew up in the shadow of Yankee Stadium. And my mom, also New Yorker though she was, you know, moved to Westchester at some point and then, you know, spent a good chunk of my childhood actually in California. My parents moved and then when I was in high school and into college, sort of in those years, they moved back to New York and I, you know, graduated from college, I went to Northwestern in Chicago, graduated in 1990 and moved to New York then. And aside from a kind of brief stint in Washington, which is kind of a rite of passage for any young journalist, I've been in New York City pretty much straight through since 1990. [00:02:40] Speaker A: Wow, that's really nice. So you lived in Manhattan, any other boroughs? [00:02:43] Speaker B: Yeah, well, I now live in Brooklyn, so those are really my two boroughs. I mean, I started in Manhattan, made the migration to first to Brooklyn Heights and then deeper into Brooklyn to Park Slope and then where I'm now in Windsor Terrace. [00:02:58] Speaker A: Very cool. And you have a family? [00:03:00] Speaker B: I have a family. I have a wife and two kids who are all, you know, my two kids are, are true New Yorkers. [00:03:06] Speaker A: Right. [00:03:06] Speaker B: Born and raised here, never lived anywhere else. And yeah, my wife is a transplanted New Yorker. Yeah. [00:03:11] Speaker A: I don't hear that New York accent, though. [00:03:13] Speaker B: No, no, my dad had one. My dad had a. My dad had a great Bronx accent, but. [00:03:17] Speaker A: Yeah, I love that. Yeah. Your kids have accents? [00:03:20] Speaker B: No, no, I think they're. No, but they are, you know, they are. They are true, true, true city people. I think. I think they're. Hard to imagine them anywhere else. Yeah. [00:03:30] Speaker A: That's interesting. And do they take the subway all the time? [00:03:32] Speaker B: They take the subway everywhere and have been doing that since they were like, 8 years old. And they. [00:03:38] Speaker A: You know, I've always wondered that because I don't know how I would feel as a parent and. What age do you allow your kid to ride the subway by themselves? How does that work? [00:03:46] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, there's no. There's no rule. [00:03:48] Speaker A: Right. [00:03:49] Speaker B: I think you just kind of get to a point where they're. They've ridden the thing enough with you that you feel like, all right, go ahead. And they're always eager to. [00:03:57] Speaker A: Right. [00:03:57] Speaker B: That's like, you know, that's like a. It's a great thing about being a kid in New York. You have this kind of independence with the subway system. You can go anywhere you want, and. And it is pretty straightforward, so. [00:04:08] Speaker A: Right. Yeah, yeah. [00:04:09] Speaker B: Of course, then they discovered city bikes as they got a little older. That's a whole other thing. [00:04:13] Speaker A: But that's so interesting to me, you know, just that whole lifestyle is. Know what it's like to grow up in New York City. [00:04:18] Speaker B: Yeah, it's a totally different. [00:04:19] Speaker A: Well, you. Did you take the subway when you were young? [00:04:22] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, though, when I was young, we were, you know, we would visit the city, you know, once or twice a year because my parents, you know, love, loved coming back here. [00:04:29] Speaker A: Right. [00:04:30] Speaker B: So I was always on the subway with them. So. [00:04:32] Speaker A: Yeah, you know, I didn't. [00:04:32] Speaker B: I didn't take the subway alone when I was a little kid, like, my kids did. [00:04:36] Speaker A: Different time, too, right? [00:04:38] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah. [00:04:39] Speaker A: The only way to travel for me, I say living in New York City. [00:04:42] Speaker B: Yeah, no, I'm. [00:04:42] Speaker A: I'm. [00:04:43] Speaker B: I'm on the subway all the time. [00:04:44] Speaker A: That's perfect. [00:04:45] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:04:46] Speaker A: So, Jonathan, we have you on the show today because you've written a new book and it's all about New York City. What inspired you to write about this time period in New York City and what's the name of the book as well? [00:04:57] Speaker B: Yeah, so the name of the book is the Gods of New York. [00:05:00] Speaker A: Great name. [00:05:00] Speaker B: Yes, thank you. And I'll tell you a little bit about how it Came to be. So I wrote a book some years ago called, Ladies and Gentlemen, the Bronx is Burning, which was about the year 1977 in New York and really kind of about the decade of the seventies in New York. And this book is. You could look at it as the sequel. This is the 80s. [00:05:20] Speaker A: Oh, interesting. [00:05:21] Speaker B: Yeah. And so the way this kind of came to be is I work at the New York Times. That's my day job, currently. Currently. Still. [00:05:29] Speaker A: Great. [00:05:30] Speaker B: And I write for the Sunday magazine, so I generally do longer pieces. But in 2016, I was assigned to cover the political campaign, the presidential campaign, which was quite something. And I. I was. I wasn't one of the reporters who was, you know, kind of traveling with a candidate. I was one of a few writers who did kind of longer pieces about the pasts of some of the candidates. [00:05:54] Speaker A: So did you, you know, follow a specific candidate or. [00:05:58] Speaker B: Yeah, no, I. I both. [00:05:59] Speaker A: Were you equally, or. All of them? [00:06:01] Speaker B: Yeah, all of them. Right. [00:06:02] Speaker A: Because it was. [00:06:02] Speaker B: It was before we even the primaries. [00:06:03] Speaker A: Right. [00:06:04] Speaker B: I was in a. [00:06:06] Speaker A: Fascinating. [00:06:06] Speaker B: Yeah, it was. It was quite something I was doing. I was not assigned to a specific candidate, so I was doing kind of longer stories that took, you know, took a little more time and research about. About the kind of history of some of the candidates. So I dug back into their past, basically. So because I'd written this book about New York in the 1970s, I was kind of naturally interested, of course, in Donald Trump's past. So I found myself kind of digging into his history in New York in the 80s. [00:06:36] Speaker A: Right. [00:06:37] Speaker B: And then I started to think, well, you know, that's a pretty interesting moment. I didn't want to write a book about him, but I did kind of realize, like, wow, what a. What a crazy cast of characters in the city then, and what a crazy place New York was then. So I thought maybe I'll. Maybe I'll just kind of dig back into this era and have. Have Trump be kind of one of a. Of a larger cast of characters. [00:07:02] Speaker A: Wow. [00:07:03] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:07:03] Speaker A: That is really, really fascinating. And so 2016 was also Hillary. Yeah, correct. It is. [00:07:10] Speaker B: And Bernie. I mean. [00:07:11] Speaker A: Right. [00:07:12] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:07:13] Speaker A: Wow. That in itself could be a whole show, what we're talking about right now. [00:07:17] Speaker B: It was wild. Yeah. [00:07:19] Speaker A: Before we get too deep, Jonathan, into what's in the book, can you give our listeners and myself some context? What was New York City dealing with in the decades leading up to the 1980s and give us a brief overview of New York City history during the 20th century? [00:07:33] Speaker B: Yeah, I'd love to. So, basically, New York went through a sort of series of amazing transformations over the course of the 20th century. And you can think of, I won't go all the way back to the beginning, but if you think about the kind of World War II and post war New York, New York was just an unimaginably different place then. It was filled with manufacturing, with factories. If you kind of think about the shoreline of the city, they were all just bustling with ships and cargo coming in and longshoremen like hauling packages and trucks and little railways and I mean, the city was just booming. And it was a real kind of working class city because all these factories and this sort of shipping center had to employ people. So you had a city that was a great working class city with lots of powerful labor unions and labor bosses and lots of immigrants. So that was sort of New York in the kind of 40s and 50s. And then what happens is the same thing that happens all across America and all over the world is that automation happens. And suddenly it becomes a lot easier to manufacture things without having a hundred people, you know, on the assembly line. And it also gets expensive in New York City to have big factories. So why don't we move our factories out of the city, right? So places. So between the automation and the kind of rising cost of real estate, New York loses a ton of, of, of jobs in the 60s and into the 70s. And then you think of what New York looked like in the 70s and you know, you can think about some movies is maybe a good way to, way to imagine it. [00:09:20] Speaker A: That's a good reference. [00:09:21] Speaker B: You can think of the warriors. Perhaps you can think of, of one of the Charles Bronson movies, Death Wish. Or you can think of Taxi Driver maybe. [00:09:31] Speaker A: What's so funny, I have Taxi Driver as a poster on my, my living room wall framed some, two people within the last day brought up Charles Bronson and the Warriors. [00:09:41] Speaker B: Those are, those are iconic 70s, that is New York. You think about the subways covered in graffiti, right? You think about the South Bronx, which was, you know, kind of arson fires. It was kind of burned down, right? So that's the 70s. And then, you know, kind of enter my book, which is really the 80s. And what happens in the 80s is the city is kind of reborn, right? Because, you know, Reagan comes into office and he is all about deregulation and, you know, free trade and free markets. And suddenly Wall street is booming, real estate is going through the roof, people are building new skyscrapers, you know, the Trump Tower and so much else. And the city is, you know, New Neighborhoods are getting discovered, new restaurants are opening. So it's this kind of. This story of rebirth. But at the same time, this new economy left out a lot of people because there were no jobs for working class. [00:10:37] Speaker A: Exactly. [00:10:38] Speaker B: There were no jobs for people who didn't have college degrees. And the government was shrinking because the city, you know, when it was coming out of the seventies, it couldn't afford. You know, there were no jobs. There were no tax. There was no tax revenue. So the city basically had to, you know, lay off firemen. It had to lay off cops. So. So you have a city that's. That's kind of, you know, booming for a certain small, you know, segment of the population. And you have a lot of people who are being left out and. And are getting frustrated. And, you know, a lot of those people were immigrants. A lot of those people were like, New Yorkers of color. A lot of black New Yorkers who had come during the great migration north in the. In the 40s and 50s. [00:11:18] Speaker A: Exactly. [00:11:19] Speaker B: And, you know, and so you have a city that's, on the surface, looks like it's thriving, but you go, like, kind of an inch below that surface, and you can see a lot of frustration building. [00:11:31] Speaker A: It's fascinating to me because now we're going up to 1986, where your book starts, correct? 86. To 86. To. [00:11:37] Speaker B: Yeah, to 90. [00:11:38] Speaker A: Yeah, to 90. Yeah. And, you know, I was. I graduated high school in 1986. So everything that your book is talking about, I remember. [00:11:48] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:11:48] Speaker A: You know, I mean, I was in Florida at the time, but I remember a lot of the huge, Big. [00:11:54] Speaker B: Yeah, they were all national stories. [00:11:56] Speaker A: They were exactly. Stories, you know, that you. That are in your book, you know, like the Central Park Five. [00:12:00] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:12:01] Speaker A: I don't know if I want to give away too much that's in the book. [00:12:03] Speaker B: Yeah, that's okay. [00:12:04] Speaker A: But, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, you know, the AIDS epidemic, homelessness, and political scandals in New York City. [00:12:12] Speaker B: Right. [00:12:12] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So. Yeah, yeah. Do you want to. Well, now, at this point, we're up to 1986, where your book starts. [00:12:19] Speaker B: Yes. So basically, you have this moment where the city's, you know, been reborn, or so it seems. But you also have this. This situation where the, you know, there's. The foundation is kind of starting to crack because you got a lot of people who are. Who are left out. So that's where things are at the beginning of 1986. And then what happens over the course of the next four years is a series of social crises and incidents you know, violent racial incidents. [00:12:51] Speaker A: Right. [00:12:52] Speaker B: That basically take that, that kind of simmering tension and rose. You know, these basically throw gasoline on it, and you have. You have a city that's kind of explodes over the course of those four years. [00:13:07] Speaker A: And why did you pick 1986 to 1990, those specific years? [00:13:11] Speaker B: Yeah, so I had a. Had a few. Few reasons. I mean, one is just the confluence of events. So many crazy, huge historical events happened during those four years. [00:13:21] Speaker A: Right. [00:13:23] Speaker B: And also it was, it was, you know, Ed Koch was. Was mayor. It was his last term as mayor. Yeah. And there was something about his kind of storyline and going from, you know, at the beginning of 1986, his storyline kind of mirrors the storyline of the city at the beginning of 1986. He's on top of the world. He has been reelected. He is the most popular, you know, as popular as any mayor has ever been in New York. He's on. He's. He's just, Just led this great rebirth. [00:13:49] Speaker A: 78% or something. [00:13:50] Speaker B: 78%. Incredible. Unimaginable. Yeah. And then over the course of the next four years, it all unravels and he runs for reelection again in 1989 and loses. But that sort of. He's kind of, in a way, he's sort of the heart of the story. He's the spine of the story, because it's sort of the unraveling of his city and the unraveling of the kind of the renaissance that he led. [00:14:14] Speaker A: It's so fascinating to me. You know, just. It takes me back in time to myself, watching TV and everything that you mention in the book. Like I said, I completely remember. [00:14:26] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:14:28] Speaker A: No, it's a fascinating book. [00:14:29] Speaker B: Yeah. And it's this thing about kind of recent history that's like, it's recent enough that it all is a little bit familiar, but it's far enough away that you're like, oh, wow, I didn't realize that. [00:14:38] Speaker A: Exactly, exactly. Yeah. And can I mention, take us back to the beginning of the book. Isn't it where Ed Koch wakes up? [00:14:48] Speaker B: Yeah, we kind of opened. [00:14:49] Speaker A: Can we talk about that? [00:14:50] Speaker B: Sure, Yeah. I mean, the book opens with Ed Koch on. On January 1, 1986, and he's just been re. You know, he's been reelected and it's, It's. It's his inauguration. And, you know, and he's. He is feeling great because he is. He is the most popular mayor in modern history in New York. And, you know, he rides his town car down to. To his inauguration at City hall, and, you know, Everything is all ready. You know, they've kicked all the homeless people out of City hall park and. [00:15:21] Speaker A: They have it my mind's eye right now, City hall park and everything, it's. [00:15:24] Speaker B: All cleaned up and they've got the, you know, the red, white and blue bunting on, on City hall. And, you know, it's a beautiful, you know, cold but clear, you know, winter morning. And he's out there and, you know, promising to, promising to make sure that these four years are even better for New York and that all the people, he, he says, all the people who were left out, you know, I got you. [00:15:47] Speaker A: Right. [00:15:47] Speaker B: You know, we are not going to rest until everyone with AIDS is, you know, is cared for. Everyone who's homeless has a home. Everyone who's poor has a job. You know, he makes all these kind of bold promises on that New Year's morning. And it's, you know, this very kind of ominous start because from there, you know, from that, that kind of lofty, lofty rhetoric and those high aspirations, it all, it all kind of falls apart. [00:16:14] Speaker A: Yep. Kind of like a. Seems to happen here and there. [00:16:18] Speaker B: It does. Yeah. [00:16:20] Speaker A: You know, as soon as you political leaders. [00:16:22] Speaker B: Yeah. You make big promises and that's when you know you're in trouble. [00:16:25] Speaker A: Right. [00:16:26] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:16:26] Speaker A: Well, you know, Jonathan, you do an amazing job of taking figures that we might know of and that we're kind of familiar with from the media and making them compelling characters in your stories. How did you go about researching. [00:16:39] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:16:39] Speaker A: And writing about them? [00:16:40] Speaker B: Yeah, it's interesting. So I, you know, because I'm a journalist, I'm a, you know, I work at the New York Times. I do a lot of reporting. I do a lot of talking to people. I do a lot of interviews. And so my first instinct is just to call everyone and meet with as many people as I could in person. So I did that. I interviewed about more than 200 people for this book. But because this happened some years ago now, this was almost four decades ago, a lot of people are gone. So I talked to the people I could talk to and then I consulted know, I did a ton of reading. I used all the old newspapers. I read every book that touched on any of this period of time and, and I used various archives. So for instance, there's a, you know, the city has a, has all of Ed Koch's memorial papers. I went through those. There's a great oral history of Ed Koch at Columbia, which is basically everyone who worked for him, every, all of his friends, everyone was. Is on, on tape. There it's amazing. You can listen to them. It's amazing. The Larry Kramer, who I write about, who was the founder of ACT up, which was the great AIDS activist organization, his papers are up in New Haven at Yale. I used those. Benjamin Ward, who is the police commissioner. His papers. Yeah, he was an amazing guy. And his papers are at John Jay College in the city. [00:18:02] Speaker A: Right. Okay, nice. [00:18:03] Speaker B: And actually, the amazing thing is when I went to consult those papers, I saw that he had a memoir, never published, so his whole life story was laid out in this. This unpublished book. So I was able to use that. And it was very, you know, it's a real intimate book. He really. I mean, it's almost like a journal. I mean, he's talking about what it was like to be, you know, the police commissioner of New York during these years when. With. With, you know, when crack. When the crack epidemic was going on. And it's. It's like, it was pretty powerful stuff. Yeah. So it was a kind of a hybrid of. Of, you know, phone calls, reporting meetings, archival material, and old newspapers. [00:18:38] Speaker A: That's fascinating. You know what I love, too, I can feel your passion about this book. And, you know, and a lot of, you know, what I love about having guests on my podcast, on our podcast is it's about passion, about New York City. And your passion about this is palpable. It's incredible. [00:18:53] Speaker B: Oh, that's great. [00:18:54] Speaker A: I'm glad you did that. [00:18:54] Speaker B: Yeah, no, I had such a blast writing and you're not going to say that. The name, the name of your podcast. The New Yorkers. Yeah, it's so, you know, someone asked me just in an interview actually, earlier today about just like, you know, how would you, you know, what New Yorker. What is a New Yorker? And I was like, well, New Yorker is not just a person who lives in New York. New Yorker is a person who, like, kind of cares about New York and sort of believes in New York, believes in the idea of New York. [00:19:20] Speaker A: Right, right. [00:19:21] Speaker B: And, you know, this book really, really kind of stirred that all up in me pretty, Pretty. Pretty powerfully. [00:19:29] Speaker A: So were people receptive to you interviewing them about, you know, the. The gods of New York? [00:19:35] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, for the most part, people were. Were pretty. Pretty willing to talk. I mean, Al Sharpton spent a lot of time with me. [00:19:41] Speaker A: Wow. [00:19:41] Speaker B: Yeah. Spike Lee was very open and agreeable. Yeah. [00:19:45] Speaker A: Was he at a. A game, a Knicks game or where he's out? [00:19:48] Speaker B: Yeah, I know he's always at a. He's literally always at a sporting event. It's incredible. [00:19:52] Speaker A: Yeah, he. [00:19:54] Speaker B: But then, you know, he was. He was, you know, he was 30 years old. It was incredible. He was very different person. Yeah. And obviously I had less luck with. [00:20:02] Speaker A: Donald Trump, though I did just get. [00:20:04] Speaker B: Oddly, I interviewed him a couple times in 2016. [00:20:09] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:20:09] Speaker B: When I was working on the campaign in. At the time. So I actually did. Did get a chance to talk to him. [00:20:15] Speaker A: Did he remember talking with you? [00:20:17] Speaker B: I mean, I, I would say if I, you know, he. He probably would remember talk to me. I mean, I did. [00:20:22] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:20:23] Speaker B: And I had, you know, I knew him a bit before because I had written about New York for. For years. He'd written me notes in the past before he became president. [00:20:31] Speaker A: So you had talked to him. What. Do you remember what year you talked to him for the book? [00:20:35] Speaker B: Yeah, it was 2016. It was during the campaign. [00:20:37] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. Okay. Yeah. [00:20:38] Speaker B: And it was before I even sold the book. It was, I was, I was just writing about him for the Times, so I, you know, but I was. We talked about some of this stuff. [00:20:45] Speaker A: You know, I've met, you know, being in my 50s, I've, you know, I've made friends here in New York City and I've heard stories of people who have dying President Trump and things like that. Yeah, yeah. They're out there. [00:21:00] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, he was such a New York figure for so long. I mean, a lot of people cross paths with them. [00:21:05] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. He definitely is a fixture of New York City. Yeah, definitely. [00:21:10] Speaker C: What about Rudy Giuliani? [00:21:12] Speaker B: Yeah, it's funny. So I did. I, he, you know, obviously he was going through some stuff while I was working on this book. And so I ended up writing a story, kind of a profile of him for the New York Times Magazine where I work, and I was trying to get him to talk to me for the story. I talked tons of people who knew him. And I kept texting him. I had his phone number. We were texting, and he was like, no, it's not the right time. I can't do it. So kept kind of putting me off, and I was like, I had to write the Post story, had to be published. So when. Right before we were publishing it, the week before. You sort of traditionally, you to. You send people like, notes for fact checking. So you're basically like, we're saying it was. And this was, you know, they're like 60 questions. So, like, these are the things where we're saying you did this, we're saying you did that. We're saying you said this, we're saying, you know, you give him a chance to respond and he wrote back. Just, you know, just like he answered like he just went off on so many different questions. So we just sort of took those answers and used them as like footnotes in the story. It was kind of funny. So it's like I didn't actually interview him, but I had his response to so many things. [00:22:22] Speaker A: That's fascinating to hear. This really is. Can I ask you about Bernard Get. [00:22:28] Speaker B: Yeah, sure. [00:22:29] Speaker A: So you had to get information or about him. [00:22:33] Speaker B: Correct. [00:22:33] Speaker A: How was that? [00:22:34] Speaker B: Yeah, so that was. [00:22:35] Speaker A: And I'm sorry, Jay, do you know who he is? [00:22:37] Speaker C: I don't know. [00:22:38] Speaker B: Oh, we should. [00:22:39] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Do you want to tell him? [00:22:40] Speaker B: Yeah, sure. [00:22:41] Speaker A: And it's okay to talk about this because it's. Sure, yeah, sure. [00:22:44] Speaker B: Yes. [00:22:44] Speaker A: I give too much of the book away because it's so incredible. [00:22:46] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:22:47] Speaker A: Well, thank you. Yeah. [00:22:48] Speaker B: Well, maybe we'll wet. Just give. Tell people just enough to wet their appetite. [00:22:51] Speaker A: There you go. Perfect. [00:22:52] Speaker B: So Bernie Getz was, you know, was a sort of self employed electrician, you know, lived in the city in, in 1984. He's around Christmas time, he gets on the subway, he's accosted, kind of sort of mugged by black teenagers. He pulls out a gun and he shoots all five of them. [00:23:17] Speaker A: I didn't realize that was all five. [00:23:18] Speaker B: One of them he paralyzes. I mean, he shoots him once and then he shoots him again on the floor of the subway car. [00:23:25] Speaker A: He. [00:23:25] Speaker B: Then the subway train kind of stops because there's gunfire. [00:23:31] Speaker A: Do you remember which train it was on? Do you happen to know it? [00:23:33] Speaker B: Yeah, it was the two, three, I think. [00:23:35] Speaker A: Oh, I didn't know. [00:23:36] Speaker B: It's in the book. [00:23:36] Speaker A: I'm trying. Yeah, I don't. Okay, go ahead. Yeah, yeah. [00:23:39] Speaker B: He, he, he gets, he. He gets off the subway, you know, runs down the tracks. He leaves the city and no one, you know, there's the tabloids, you know, have the story of this, this, you know, this, the Death Wish gunman, they called him. This guy who's, you know, who knows who he is or what happened, but he, you know, he's instantly already kind of like, you know, in a weird way, like already being kind of elevated into, like a hero. He. He fought back on the side. [00:24:07] Speaker C: Like a vigilante. [00:24:08] Speaker B: Exactly. Vi. [00:24:09] Speaker A: Exactly. [00:24:10] Speaker B: And then he, he disappears. No one knows where he is. He turns himself into the police up in New Hampshire. [00:24:16] Speaker A: Wow. [00:24:16] Speaker B: And then they bring him back down to the city and everyone meets this guy. Here he is. Bernie gets the, you know, the kind of the Angry, you know, vigilante, fighting back. And he becomes a. Literally becomes a folk hero among like a certain part of New York because, you know, people are like, yeah, he, you know, he's, he's. Yeah, yeah. And you know, they're literally like chance on the subway. You know, Mets, jets, gets Y. They're a T shir shirts. You know, you know, Bernie, he gets it or you know, stuff like that. And, and initially he's so. Because, you know, because he's, he's like kind of beloved in, in, you know, some quarters of the city. He's the, the. The district attorney, Bob Morgenthau doesn't like, does. Does kind of a half ass job prosecuting him initially. [00:25:01] Speaker A: Right. [00:25:02] Speaker B: Then little more time passes and it becomes clear, well, wait a second. This. What was, what was like, did he really need to shoot five guys? And like, you know, some of the stuff that he'd said in the past, he was clearly racist. Like, some of this stuff starts to come out and it's like, oh, wait a second, maybe. And then the DA kind of takes another run at him and this time really, you know, indicts him for. For, for murder and you know, all sorts of other crimes. And, and he goes on trial. And this trial becomes this incredibly kind of polarizing event in the city because, you know, to half the city he's still a hero. Another half of the city, he's, you know, like a, like a murderer. I mean, or not murderer because he's, you know, he didn't actually murder anyone. He nearly did. I mean, he paralyzed someone. And so, so I guess attempted murder. And, and also, I mean, he, he, you know, he basically admits his testimony, you know, not a testimony. His, his statement to the police, you know, get. Becomes public. And he basically says, I was trying to kill them. Like, he's, you know, so, you know, nevertheless, he goes on trial and is acquitted of everything but illegal possession of a gun. [00:26:14] Speaker A: Right. [00:26:15] Speaker B: And so, you know, so that trial happens in 1987. And, and you know, I mean, like a big chunk of the city and like, really all of black New York is like, what the. [00:26:25] Speaker A: Like, well, that. What. And that's piggybacking on other. [00:26:30] Speaker B: Yeah, you know, it comes after exactly some other serious racial incidents and some other like, you know, serious failures of criminal justice system. So, you know, so he just, you know, it becomes this, this, you know, just this, this, this wedge that just, you know, sort of fractures city. [00:26:46] Speaker A: Right. You know, it's sad that it's still parallel to today. [00:26:50] Speaker B: Yeah, Yeah. I mean, the city's much better. [00:26:52] Speaker A: But I don't mean New York City. I'm sorry. I mean just in the country. [00:26:55] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, for sure. No, I mean, this is a good point. [00:26:58] Speaker A: You said. [00:26:58] Speaker B: Yeah, this is a. This is a. Always an ongoing problem. [00:27:02] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, but I'll. I remember that. I remember watching that, you know, on the 6:30 news with, like, Dan Rather or Walter Cron. Roger Cronkite, every day. Yeah. [00:27:12] Speaker B: You know, and you know who loved Bernie Getz was Curtis Sliwa. You know, who's. The Guardian Angels. [00:27:17] Speaker A: Of course. They love running for. [00:27:19] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. Running for mayor. Yeah. [00:27:22] Speaker A: How do you feel about the mayoral race today? [00:27:24] Speaker B: Yeah, well, I mean, it's. It's kind of amazing that, first of all, that New York seems so, like, involved. Like, this is. I feel like this is the first mayoral race we've had in a while where people are really, like, talking about it and are interested in it. [00:27:39] Speaker A: I agree. [00:27:40] Speaker B: And not just New York, like, all of America, which is unusual for this country. [00:27:44] Speaker C: I was just down in Florida, and we were. I was in a pool, and these two old ladies came up to me and were like, don't vote for that socialist. [00:27:52] Speaker B: Oh, that's hilarious. [00:27:54] Speaker C: To be fair, they were from New York, so maybe they have a little more investment, but they're not. Haven't been living. [00:27:58] Speaker A: I was gonna say, how do they even know you're. How do they know you were from New York? [00:28:01] Speaker C: We had started talking about. Okay, yeah, so it was so funny because this woman. I was swimming in the pool. There was two, like, old women in me, like, 70s or 80s, and she was saying, like, don't show off for me. I'm from Brooklyn. And I was like, I'm from Brooklyn. And she was like, oh, well, I'm from Bed Stuy. So. And I'm like, I was born in Bed Stuy. And so we just, like, were talking, and she had been bor. And like, a few blocks away from me, maybe, like, 30. Well, maybe like 50 years. [00:28:26] Speaker B: So you were born in Bed Sty. Yeah, there's. There's a. There's a good chunk of the book. [00:28:32] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:28:32] Speaker B: I mean, there's like. There's some. Some passages about. [00:28:35] Speaker C: Okay, cool. [00:28:35] Speaker B: I get. I get pretty deep into Bed Stuy. Yeah, it's where, you know, it was where. When Jesse Jackson was running for president. It's where his. His campaign was. Campaign was based. In Bed Stuy. Yeah. [00:28:46] Speaker A: Yeah. That's like another. No. Gosh, you just bring back all these memories. [00:28:50] Speaker B: And that's where Spike Lee shot. Do the right thing. I'm sure you know that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:28:53] Speaker A: But what we're going to say about this mayoral race. [00:28:55] Speaker B: Yeah. So I think it's. So I think it's cool that people are actually like. [00:28:59] Speaker A: Right. [00:29:00] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And then it's getting some. Some traction even outside New York. I think that, look, you can. Whether you, Whether you agree with what he's proposing or not, that socialist. He is. He is speaking to a. But a real problem in New York. I mean, there is a. We are in a crisis of affordability. There is no. The cost of living in the city has become unmanageable. And, you know, New York is a place that for New York to work, it needs to be providing opportunity. It needs to be providing possibility for people and the minute. [00:29:35] Speaker A: For just the billionaires. [00:29:36] Speaker B: Exactly. [00:29:37] Speaker A: But it's got. For the regular people. [00:29:38] Speaker B: Yes. [00:29:38] Speaker A: Like myself. [00:29:39] Speaker B: Yes. And as soon as it stops doing that, it's. It's like it's not New York anymore. And. And so I think that, you know, we're at a kind of tipping point now, so. Yeah. [00:29:49] Speaker A: Yeah, we'll see what happens. It's interesting. I mean, the whole country, like you said, is basically watching our race. Race here. [00:29:56] Speaker B: Yeah, totally. [00:29:56] Speaker A: So, yeah, it's. It's. It's really interesting to watch. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. [00:30:01] Speaker B: It's going to be interesting to see how much. [00:30:03] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:30:03] Speaker B: How much money kind of gets poured into trying to stop him. [00:30:06] Speaker A: Yeah. Watching that right now. [00:30:08] Speaker C: So much. [00:30:09] Speaker A: Yeah, it's interesting. It's interesting. [00:30:11] Speaker B: Yeah. It's like, you can't. Maybe it's going to cost you a lot to fight Mom, Donnie, but it's going to cost you even more if he wins. [00:30:17] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. [00:30:20] Speaker C: That's what I think about the amount of money that people are spending to stop the campaign. [00:30:24] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:30:24] Speaker C: And like, it just kind of all goes away. I know, I know. [00:30:27] Speaker B: Just. Exactly that. Just. Just set that money on fire. [00:30:30] Speaker C: Yeah. That money saying. [00:30:31] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:30:32] Speaker A: What's interesting is my next question was going to be, how are the events of the book related to current day New York City? [00:30:37] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:30:38] Speaker A: And here we are, you know. [00:30:39] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:30:39] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:30:40] Speaker B: I mean, I, I think about this mayoral race as being an answer to what, you know, kind of almost a bookend to what started in the 1980s when. [00:30:50] Speaker A: Oh, wow. Yeah. [00:30:50] Speaker B: Because. Because that's when. That's when the city really put its hands in the fate of finance and Wall street and real estate. And like, we are. That's what. We're going to build our economy around these things. And what Happens when you do that is a certain subset of the population, you know, thrives and another subset of the population does not. [00:31:13] Speaker A: Correct. [00:31:13] Speaker B: And the cost of living rises, and fewer and fewer people can afford it, and. And then you reach a point of crisis, and that's sort of what's happened now. New York, New York becomes a luxury product as. As Michael Bloomberg. Mayor Bloomberg called it. [00:31:26] Speaker A: Right. Yeah, I agree. You know, I also feel, you know, thinking back to the 80s, I think that, you know, like you said, it was a turnaround for New York City for the better. [00:31:35] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:31:35] Speaker A: You're making me think of Central park and how it turned around. [00:31:38] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. Ye. [00:31:40] Speaker A: Do you remember it? You lived here. Do you remember how bad it was? [00:31:42] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, Central park was a. Was a. Was a dust bowl. [00:31:46] Speaker A: Right. [00:31:46] Speaker B: The playgrounds were. [00:31:48] Speaker A: Were. Yeah, you said that. Yeah. Yeah. [00:31:52] Speaker B: And then what the city did that was. Was. Was really smart. I mean, that they. They realized that. That, you know, to. For the city to rebuild the park was going to be too much. It would cost too much money when the city was going broke. So they. They created a kind of public private partnership, and they brought, you know, the private sector in to help rebuild the park. And I mean, that, to me, is just like a great use of. Of all of the kind of money that's being generated in the private sector in New York. It's like, hey, you know, your. Your company is so successful because your workers ride the subway. Like, your company is so successful because people want to be in New York because this is a great city and you need to, you know, you need to give back. And so, you know, with the city supporting you. [00:32:39] Speaker A: Right. [00:32:39] Speaker B: Supporting your business, and so why don't you give back by helping us rebuild this park? And. And private industry rose to the occasion. And it worked. [00:32:46] Speaker A: It did. And you know what? I only know it as it is today. The beauty. [00:32:49] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:32:49] Speaker A: It is today. I cannot imagine it how you saw it. Yeah, no, you know, I mean, yeah, it's. It's my favorite place in the world, basically. Yeah. It's best. [00:32:58] Speaker B: It's the best. [00:32:58] Speaker A: It's incredible. Yeah. [00:32:59] Speaker B: The Prospect Park's pretty good, too. [00:33:01] Speaker A: Same designers? [00:33:02] Speaker B: Same designer. Exactly. [00:33:03] Speaker A: Homestead and Box. Exactly. Yeah. [00:33:05] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:33:05] Speaker A: Big, big fans of them as well. [00:33:08] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:33:08] Speaker A: So I'm gonna ask you some questions now. [00:33:10] Speaker B: Sure. [00:33:10] Speaker A: This is zipping by very quick. We're almost done, and I wish it wasn't. This is incredible. Yeah. So I'm gonna ask you some questions. If you don't like them, we can pass them, but then I'll do some quick fire. How you doing, Jay? You doing good? [00:33:20] Speaker C: Good. [00:33:21] Speaker A: Okay. So, Jonathan, what was the moment or question that made you realize I have to write this book? Hmm. [00:33:31] Speaker B: I think I just. The deeper I kind of dove into this period of time, the more I felt like I was kind of unlocking, like, a little bit of. Of the past that was. Was, like, really important to understanding, like, how we got to our present moment. So it was both this sense of, like, oh, there's. There's something here that's going to help people understand our world today. I think once I kind of made that connection and realized, like, this is a book about four years in the 1980s, but it's really a book that explains so much about the moment we've arrived at. I think that was what made me feel like this is. Yeah, this is. This is worth doing. [00:34:08] Speaker A: Yeah, I love it. That's a great answer. Great answer. What surprised you most during your research? Like, something you didn't expect to find or feel? Is there anything you can think of? [00:34:17] Speaker B: Yeah. So one thing that I really. That was just always surprising me and just. Just, you know, kind of was striking me, in a way, was how during these years, the city almost felt like a small town. Like, there's. These stories would happen, these things would happen. You know, we talked about Bernie Goetz before, but there were so many like that, so many events, and everyone in New York would be talking about the same story for, you know, for weeks. And this sense that, like, everyone was. Was invested in the fate of New York in a way that, you know, I guess we're starting to feel that a little bit now with the Merrell race, but it's the first time I've felt that way in a long time. So I was. I was struck always by this sense of. Of New York being one city in a way that it just feels now like it's a million cities. [00:35:05] Speaker A: I love it. Yeah. Yeah, it does. It really does. What I love, too, is the whole world is, you know, New York City is still the center of the world, in my opinion. Still, people still think of New York City as the center of the world. [00:35:16] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [00:35:17] Speaker A: You know, no matter what decade we are in. [00:35:19] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:35:19] Speaker A: You know. [00:35:20] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:35:20] Speaker A: And that's why I think, you know, and I think the book just those. Those 86 days, 7889. I mean, it's just such a good time to talk about, too. [00:35:29] Speaker B: Yeah. You know, it's fun. [00:35:30] Speaker A: It's, you know, and I think your audience is going to take them back. Yeah. What we saw on tv. [00:35:35] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, exactly. I mean, my hope is that people who. Who. Who kind of live through it or even if they were young, will kind of like, oh, you know, I sort of remember that. Oh, yeah. And then other people who are even younger. [00:35:48] Speaker A: Right. [00:35:48] Speaker B: Will just be like, whoa. New York was a crazy, crazy place. [00:35:54] Speaker A: Well, back in the 80s, too. We were. We religiously watched the nightly news. [00:35:59] Speaker B: Totally. [00:36:00] Speaker A: As a family, too, or. Yeah. However. Yeah. And so we're 630 or whatever. We're all watching the news, so all these major stories are on. Yeah. You know, and Barbara Walters, was she in that time, too? [00:36:09] Speaker B: Yeah, sure. Yeah. [00:36:10] Speaker A: You know. Yeah. All those famous, you know, people that you probably have talked to. Is there anything that. I mean, there's a lot of research that you did. Was it hard to leave things out? [00:36:21] Speaker B: Yeah, it was hard. I mean, I. You know, there were. There were lots of, you know, because I was trying to tell a story that was kind of, you know, I want. There was going to be culture, there was going to be politics, there was going to be the social life of the city. There was so much I wanted to do. And, you know, as it is, I have, you know, I have such a wide array of characters from, you know, Donald Trump to Spike Lee to Al Sharpton to Larry Kramer. I felt like I. There were others. There were people who I wanted to write about more. Like. Like Jean. Jean Michel Basquiat was someone who I wrote quite a bit about, but I didn't include any of it because it just felt like too. Too digressive. [00:36:59] Speaker A: Right. [00:37:00] Speaker B: So, you know, The Mets in 1986 were an amazing story that I wanted to tell, but I just didn't. I just. You just can't do it. [00:37:08] Speaker A: All right. Yeah, completely. Well, I don't completely understand, but I feel what you're saying. [00:37:12] Speaker B: Well, you've experienced it in a different way on a podcast. Like, you could probably talk to someone for hours. [00:37:17] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, I want to talk to you for hours, actually. You know, I mean, can you talk? [00:37:23] Speaker B: How much time do you fall asleep? [00:37:25] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:37:26] Speaker C: I'm super curious about Ed Koch and his starting, like, at the beginning, you wrote a little, like, bio of him in, like, chapter one. And I was so intrigued by him starting as kind of like, a super progressive guy and being, like, very. For social change and helping everyone. And it seems like he kind of became obsessed with the popularity and the, like. [00:37:54] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:37:55] Speaker C: I guess, social acclaim that he got becoming mayor. [00:37:59] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:38:00] Speaker C: And maybe left those progressive ideals to the sidelines. Like, how did that Happened for him. [00:38:05] Speaker B: Yeah, that's. That's, that's. That's exactly right. I mean, I think that he saw the city. You know, you think about, you know, he was a young. Young man in. Living in Greenwich Village in the. In the 60s. Then he was. It was a, you know, the, The. The kind of the, The. [00:38:22] Speaker A: The. [00:38:22] Speaker B: The general tide was. Was liberal, was progressive. [00:38:26] Speaker A: Right, right. [00:38:27] Speaker B: And I think he was kind of riding that tide. And then I think, you know, in the 70s, things kind of turned. The city got a little darker or people got a little more cynical. There was more crime. And I think he. He was a. He was a politician and he wanted to. He wanted to win votes. And I think he saw that the mood of the city was. If the city. Think about the city as a mood ring. The mood of the city was changing, and he wanted to be. Yeah, in sync with it. And I think, you know, I think he. He abandoned a lot of what he had kind of fought for and believed in as a younger guy. [00:39:04] Speaker C: And so his, like, his claim his last term to like, go back to some of those. More social media. Do you think that was more of him, like, trying to appease the people, or was he, like, actually thinking that that was the right thing? [00:39:17] Speaker B: I think that he felt in that moment because he was a guy who, you know, he cared about New York. Like he was a flawed, very flawed guy, but he loved New York. I think he could see that New York was, you know, that, that, that New York had some. Some, like some real issues that he had to deal with. He could see there were, you know, there were homeless people. New York never had homeless people before. Suddenly there were. There were like, thousands of people living on the streets. That was a new. It's crazy to think about, right, because you're just like, what. Haven't homeless people been here forever? [00:39:47] Speaker A: Right. No, that's what I thought. [00:39:48] Speaker B: No, in the, in before. Before the early 1980s, it was, you know, you had. You had guys hanging around the Bowery that was the. They were known as, like, winos or, you know, vagrants. But you didn't have people who just literally didn't have homes. I mean, and so, you know, he could see that he. The AIDS crisis had. Had. Had hit by 86. It was beginning to claim a lot of lives. He knew that, you know, he could see that something was wrong. And I think he. He, you know, he probably genuinely wanted to try to fix the city. But at the. At that point, it was, you know, it was kind of too late, especially given what was going to happen over years? [00:40:25] Speaker C: Interesting. [00:40:26] Speaker A: Good question, Jay. Yeah. The title is bold. Jonathan. [00:40:30] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:40:30] Speaker A: The Gods of New York. How did you come up with that? [00:40:33] Speaker B: Yeah, well, a friend suggested it. [00:40:35] Speaker A: Really? [00:40:35] Speaker B: Reading that. Yeah. Friend read the manuscript and then it was interesting. It's a funny story because I was. I spent in the end, eight years on this book and I, for seven years did not have a title for the book. I knew what the. Exactly what the book was. I could not think. You know, I sent out the manuscript to a few friends, not even for a title, but just to have them read it. Editors, people who I trust. And one of them said, the Gods of New York. And I was like, that's perfect. And I loved it from the minute I heard it. But then as I started to share it with people, some people were like, that's a great title. A few people were like, really? You're gonna call Donald Trump and Rudy? [00:41:16] Speaker A: You know what? I think it fits perfectly. [00:41:19] Speaker B: Yes. So thank you. So then I was like. But I was in a real quandary for a while and I was trying. And. And, you know, so I, you know, ultimately my editor also was like, it's a great title. We are not going to change it. And, and, you know, I just, it's, it's. It was clear to me always that I am not saying like Judeo, Christian gods. I'm not saying. I'm saying these are like Greek gods. [00:41:43] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:41:43] Speaker B: You know, who are. Who are petty and, and vengeful. [00:41:46] Speaker A: Right. [00:41:47] Speaker B: And they also. [00:41:48] Speaker C: Larger than life. [00:41:49] Speaker B: Exactly. They're larger than life characters. Exactly. Yeah. [00:41:52] Speaker A: I, I think. I love the name. [00:41:54] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:41:55] Speaker A: You know, I think. [00:41:55] Speaker B: Great. Thank you. [00:41:56] Speaker A: Yeah. It's a great book. I think it. I think the. [00:41:59] Speaker B: It fits. Right. [00:42:00] Speaker A: Perfectly. Yeah, it really does. Do you have anything yourself you want to add about the book or anything? [00:42:05] Speaker B: No, I mean, we're chatting. I'm. I am. You know, I think that. That I. What I. What I hope and. And think people will. Will like get from this book above all is like, it's fun. It's like a kind of rollicking book. It's a good time, I think, to read. It's like, it moves along and it's filled with these just kind of outrageous characters, just, you know, over the top characters. But I also think that kind of beneath that I hope that there's a real. That there's a real kind of soul. There's a real feeling of, you know, kind of love for this city and for the fate of this city and, you know, hope for it that hope that it'll work and work for more people. And, you know, I hope people will kind of read this book and both, like, really, like, get a kick out of it and enjoy it, but also kind of, you know, feel like that they. They care a little bit more about New York after finishing it. [00:43:01] Speaker A: That's the great end to the questions. [00:43:05] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:43:06] Speaker A: All right. [00:43:07] Speaker C: I absolutely feel that in reading it, it feels like actually we're for my. For the job that I do right now, we're writing or making a documentary series on the Yankees. [00:43:18] Speaker A: Oh, awesome. [00:43:18] Speaker C: And my boss is a huge Yankees fan, and so he's for the first time narrating one of his own movies or TV shows. [00:43:28] Speaker A: Okay, cool. [00:43:28] Speaker C: And they're doing it from the point of view of him being a Yankees fan, growing up and learning about the Yankees and following them through the show. And so it's him. His personal narration about the documentary. And I kind of feel a similar thing with the book where you're writing about these people and these characters and these stories, and there's character to the writing. There's a kind of personable aspect of the book and in the pacing of the book, and I think that really comes through. [00:44:00] Speaker A: That's great. [00:44:00] Speaker C: Thank you. [00:44:01] Speaker B: Glad to hear that. [00:44:01] Speaker A: Thank you. 100 agree. [00:44:02] Speaker B: Yeah, 100 agreed to hear that. [00:44:04] Speaker A: Thank you. 10 quick fire questions. Ready? [00:44:07] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:44:07] Speaker A: New York bagel or New York slice? [00:44:10] Speaker B: Bagel. [00:44:11] Speaker A: Yeah. I'm sorry, who was the most fun character to write about? [00:44:16] Speaker B: Al Sharpton. [00:44:17] Speaker A: Really? Yeah. [00:44:18] Speaker B: He just was crazy. [00:44:19] Speaker A: Yeah, he just. I love that. [00:44:21] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:44:22] Speaker A: Favorite spot at NYC to people watch Prospect Park. You know what? I'd been there once because Jay took me there. Oh, I loved it too. [00:44:30] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:44:30] Speaker C: We just had a picnic there, actually. [00:44:32] Speaker B: I'm like a summer day. I feel like. [00:44:34] Speaker C: Yeah. We spent the whole day. I went at like 10am and invited just a bunch of friends and we stayed there until like, eight. [00:44:39] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:44:40] Speaker B: That's awesome. [00:44:42] Speaker A: Yeah. Might be kind of an interesting question right here. What decade would you time travel to in New York? [00:44:48] Speaker B: I mean, now, for the 80s, for sure. [00:44:50] Speaker A: Exactly. [00:44:51] Speaker B: Now that I've written about it, I want to. I want to go back. [00:44:53] Speaker A: Yep. That wasn't even planned with it right here. Subway cab or walk? [00:44:58] Speaker B: Subway. [00:44:59] Speaker A: Yep. Most overrated New Yorker. Past or present? [00:45:03] Speaker B: Most overrated New Yorker. [00:45:06] Speaker A: Man, you don't have to answer. [00:45:08] Speaker B: Donald Trump. [00:45:14] Speaker A: Favorite guilty pleasure, NYC movie or show? [00:45:19] Speaker B: I mean, does Seinfeld count as a guilty pleasure? [00:45:22] Speaker A: I'd say so. Definitely. Okay. Yeah. And then lastly, what would your book subtitle be if it were a headline in the New York Post. [00:45:35] Speaker B: This was a crazy time. [00:45:37] Speaker A: Perfectly said. So, Jonathan, tell us where we can buy the book. [00:45:42] Speaker B: You can buy the book starting August 12th at any bookstore or you can go on Amazon and any independent bookstore in New York City from whatever neighborhood you're in, whether it's McNally Jackson, whether it's Greenlight, whether it's books or magic, or just go on your computer and order it from Amazon. It'll arrive in, in 24 hours. [00:46:03] Speaker A: Nice. Very cool. And they can get it via hard copy that we have here. [00:46:08] Speaker B: You can get a, you can get a hard copy cover or you can get a. You can get it on your Kindle or you can get an audiobook, too. [00:46:14] Speaker A: Nice. Yeah, very cool. [00:46:16] Speaker B: Listen it on your walks around the city. [00:46:18] Speaker A: Yes, great idea. Great idea, my friend. So, Jonathan, before we let you go, we here at the New Yorkers Podcast want to know what it means to you, Jonathan Mahler, to be a New Yorker. [00:46:29] Speaker B: Yeah. So to me, being a New Yorker is not just being a resident of New York. Being a New Yorker is caring about the city, caring about the idea of the city, kind of believing in the promise of the city. So it's, it's about kind of a frame of mind more than it is just a place where you live. [00:46:49] Speaker A: Nice. What I love is you inadvertently already answered the question. I did. The contest came up naturally. The podcast. Yeah, that was, that was, I was like, he's answering it right now. He doesn't even know. [00:47:00] Speaker C: We ask every guest. [00:47:01] Speaker B: That's good. [00:47:02] Speaker A: Yeah. So it was interesting that you, you really said that, you know. Thank you for joining us today for this week's episode of the New Yorkers Podcast. Jonathan, why don't you let everyone know where they can find you on social media? [00:47:14] Speaker B: Yeah, you can find me on Instagram, Jonathan Mahler. Or on Twitter or X, I guess. Jonathan Mahler. [00:47:24] Speaker A: Yeah. Once again, I'm your host, Kelly Kopp, also known as New York City Cop, across all my social media. [00:47:31] Speaker B: Please like and subscribe to the New Yorkers Podcast and you can follow the New Yorkers on social media at the New Yorkers Podcast. [00:47:38] Speaker A: You can leave a rating or a comment to let us know how you are enjoying the show. We read through all your comments and DMs, so please, we would love to hear from you. Thank you. Jennifer Southwood, Gavin Young. Young and Lee. Cheers for your kind words on the last episode. If you want to be featured at the end of an episode, leave a rating on Apple Podcast or a comment on Spotify. [00:47:58] Speaker B: And thank you Tina Collins, Eric Fernando and Helen Bradford for your comments on Facebook. [00:48:04] Speaker A: Have a lovely day everyone and we will see you next time. [00:48:07] Speaker B: Bye. [00:48:08] Speaker A: Thank you New York 100 for sponsoring this episode. To learn more about them, visit ny100.org this is the last stop on this train. [00:48:20] Speaker B: Everyone please leave the train. Thank you for riding with MTA New York City Transit.