Creating the Future of New York City! -With Sara Lind

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hello everyone and welcome to the New Yorkers, a podcast by New York City Cop. I'm your host, Kelly Kopp, published photographer, New York City tour business owner, content creator, podcaster and above all else, New Yorker. [00:00:12] Speaker B: Ladies and gentlemen, the next Brooklyn found [00:00:16] Speaker A: trained in Mount Hyde. Stand clear of the closing doors please. [00:00:35] Speaker B: This is the times square. Is available to the shuttle to grant the stable. [00:00:53] Speaker A: With me today, my friends, I have executive director Sarah Lind right here. She is the co executive director of Open Plans, a New York City based advocacy organization working to make streets and public spaces more livable. Sarah is a frequent media source on urban planning and policy with appearances on on WPIX 11, ABC 7, WNYC and NY1 New York 1. I should say she holds a JD from the University of Chicago, an MIA from Columbia SIPA and a BS from the University of Wisconsin. But above all else, she is a New Yorker. Hey Sarah, welcome to the show. How are you today? [00:01:34] Speaker B: I'm great. Thank you so much for having me. [00:01:36] Speaker A: Wow, I love everything that you've done right here. Reading this too real quick, you know, at the University of Wisconsin. Is that in Platteville? [00:01:43] Speaker B: No, Madison. [00:01:44] Speaker A: Madison, okay. Because I years ago I lived in the Midwest and I wasn't sure exactly where it was, but just brought back some memories. But anyway, tell us about you, Sarah. Tell us about yourself, where you're from, you know, how your life started. Where was that? [00:02:00] Speaker B: Yeah, well, I'm originally from Wisconsin, which is how I ended up at the University of Wisconsin, sort of a mid sized city called Beloit and you know, had a sort of lovely childhood in a very walkable neighborhood. Rode myself to school. [00:02:16] Speaker A: Yeah, all those things. [00:02:19] Speaker B: But you know, I always wanted to live in a bigger place. Understood. You know, I kind of always wanted to come to New York. It was a circuitous route there, but it's been such a joy finally getting here. [00:02:33] Speaker A: You know, I haven't talked about this much on my podcast, but I was actually born in Iowa and my whole family's from Iowa and Wisconsin was just across the Mississippi river. Right there was in Dubuque. Dubuque, Iowa. So we were neighbors. You know, I was born at a different time than you, but we were neighbors. But then. Go ahead. I didn't mean to interrupt. And then. [00:02:51] Speaker B: Oh no, yeah. I mean it's really interesting having that background. I'm sure you feel the same way. I think you see New York in a slightly know from a slightly different perspective, knowing what it's like to live somewhere small and sometimes small minded [00:03:11] Speaker A: and [00:03:12] Speaker B: coming to New York just, you know, really changed my life and also both from a personal perspective, but professionally, you know, I brought up the fact that I could bike to school because I think in so many places in America, you know, kids can't. [00:03:28] Speaker A: Right. [00:03:28] Speaker B: And I really wanted to live in a place where I could get around without a car as an adult. And I have two kids, so raising them here in New York City and the freedom they have being free from cars is really part of why I do the work I do. [00:03:41] Speaker A: Wow. So you rode your bike to school in Wisconsin? You know, I don't think we did, actually. Maybe we're a little bit too far, you know, but we rode our bikes everywhere. [00:03:50] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:03:50] Speaker A: Too. I loved it. That's what I loved about, you know, being a child in the Midwest. [00:03:54] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:03:55] Speaker A: And, you know, we came home when it was dusk. You know, there was. It was a much different time. And I mean, we're all over the city, I mean, riding our bikes everywhere. Yeah. And so I love. That's what we're going to talk about today. [00:04:08] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:04:09] Speaker A: That's the whole point of this, this podcast. So. So you were in Wisconsin and you were pretty. You know, you have so many amazing accolades and used even as a young person in school, you were active. Correct. So tell us about that. I think that's fascinating, like how your brain works. I mean, I love it. You know, go ahead. [00:04:31] Speaker B: Well, you know, always an overachiever. Yeah, I've tried to dial that back a little as an adult, you know, give myself some grace and space. Yeah. Always an overachiever. At Wisconsin, at Madison, you know, I was very active in student organizations and student life, and I went straight through to law school, which I have thoughts about for anyone out there looking to go to law school, but always thought I wanted to be involved civically in some way. And getting a law degree felt like a step on that path. But then when you're in law school, you get a lot of offers to go to big fancy law firms where they're gonna pay you a lot, wine and dine you. So I did that for about four and a half years, almost five years. [00:05:16] Speaker A: In Wisconsin. [00:05:17] Speaker B: In Chicago. [00:05:18] Speaker A: Oh, in Chicago. I'm sorry. Yeah. [00:05:19] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:05:20] Speaker A: Wow. That's amazing. And so then what happened after that? [00:05:24] Speaker B: Well, it wasn't for me. Working in a big law firm. I realized I really want to do mission based work and I want to feel good about my work. And the one thing that I was able to do when I was at a big law firm was a lot of them do pro Bono work. They give you a chance to go do work for free for clients. And I represented a lot of people seeking asylum, and it was the most meaningful work I did there, obviously. But I saw how broken our immigration system is. I mean, it is just. [00:05:58] Speaker A: Can I ask you what years this was? [00:05:59] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, it was honestly much better years. This would have been from 2007 to 2011. [00:06:06] Speaker A: A bit different. Yeah, yeah. Just for context. So I can totally. [00:06:10] Speaker B: Yeah, I can't imagine working in that space right now. It would be very, very difficult. But even then, the system is just so broken. [00:06:19] Speaker A: Right. [00:06:20] Speaker B: And I loved working with individual clients. It was so meaning, you know, helping them and ushering them through their cases was so important to me. But I realized that I am a big picture thinker, and I want to think about the systems, how we fix systems. So in advocacy, there's kind of two paths. You know, there's that, like, direct service path, and then there's more of the systemic thinking path. And I learned a lot about myself and learned that that was the path I wanted to go down. So I went and got my master's at Columbia to focus more on public policy. [00:06:56] Speaker A: And that was here in New York, correct? [00:06:57] Speaker B: That was in New York. It's not what brought me here. I came because my husband at the time is from here, and we had two little kids and, you know, wanted to bring them here and raise them. You know, his family was here. Is here. [00:07:11] Speaker A: Is he from Wisconsin? [00:07:12] Speaker B: No, he's from New York. He's from Manhattan. [00:07:13] Speaker A: Well, how did you meet him? I'm so sorry. That's what I mean. [00:07:15] Speaker B: Oh. We were working together at a law firm in Chicago. He went to law school in Chicago, as did I, and he working at a law firm there. That's where we met. And then we came to New York. [00:07:24] Speaker A: He's like, I want to go back to New York. I'm like, I'm going with you. [00:07:27] Speaker B: And I was like, I am so in. Yes, please. [00:07:30] Speaker A: So had you been to New York before that? [00:07:32] Speaker B: A few times, yeah. But not for any extended period of time. But I think back to my childhood, and I just remember, like, wanting so badly to be here. [00:07:43] Speaker A: Me too. [00:07:43] Speaker B: So it felt so right, you know, doesn't it? Yeah. Just so right. We came to look for an apartment, and I just was like, oh, I'm home. Yeah. [00:07:53] Speaker A: Yep. That's exactly how I felt, you know, and still feel absolutely. You know, this is. This is home. There's really no place I. I can live now other than New York City and never Say never. But, you know, I always say to people around the world who it's their dreams to be here, you know, and sadly may never, you know, come visit, but in their heart, they feel like New Yorkers from watching tv, movies and all that. And that's what the city does. That's so special to everybody. [00:08:18] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:08:19] Speaker A: You know. [00:08:20] Speaker B: Yeah. There's a quote, I'm forgetting who said it, but about, you know, the different value that, you know, immigrants from abroad bring, that native born New Yorkers bring and that, you know, I hate the phrase, but transplants bring. And I think we bring a, like a passion that is chosen, you know, it's a chosen home. [00:08:39] Speaker A: Completely agree. And side note, look what's going on with the Knicks right now. [00:08:43] Speaker B: Oh, I know. [00:08:44] Speaker A: Are you, like, going bonkers? [00:08:46] Speaker B: Wednesday was insane. I've never experienced a sports moment like that before. [00:08:52] Speaker A: Me neither. I was losing my mind. I think the whole city was. And people around the world were too. [00:09:00] Speaker B: Yeah. I've had a few calls over the last few days with people outside of New York who immediately asked me, yeah, what's it like? How is it we're rooting for you? I love it. [00:09:10] Speaker A: The city feels amazing. [00:09:12] Speaker B: It does. [00:09:13] Speaker A: So let's talk about the reason you're here, too. Your passion for what you do among many of your passions, but you know, a main passion that you have. [00:09:22] Speaker B: Yeah, I think the Knicks is a great example of it. What's going on right now, which is, you see after the games, people pouring into the streets and celebrating together and using that public space, you know, to. To build community with each other. And that's at Open Plans. How we think about public space, it is for moving through. You know, we have roads and sidewalks that help us get places, but it's also our communal space. You know, most New Yorkers don't have a front yard or a backyard. When you leave your apartment or your home, you're on our sidewalks. That's where you see your neighbors. You know, that sense of community. There's a woman on my block. I always see her walking her dog. I don't know her name. We smile and nod every morning. You know, it's that those moments that we can have in the city in our public spaces and how we create and manage those spaces to ensure that they can be the best possible places for New Yorkers to coexist together. [00:10:21] Speaker A: Right. So it's called Open Plan, specifically. Right? [00:10:24] Speaker B: Yes. [00:10:24] Speaker A: I love that. I think that's a great name. Go ahead. I'm so sorry. Yeah. [00:10:28] Speaker B: Oh, no. Yeah. I Think that's the core of our mission. You know, we have a lot of different campaigns, but the really fundamental part is how we use public space for people, not just for cars or trucks or other vehicles. [00:10:44] Speaker A: Wow. So how does that, you know, side note, too, here, how does that tie into congestion pricing and things like that? [00:10:52] Speaker B: Yeah, directly, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. So a lot of the, you know, work we do is kind of around the fact that if you want that space to be for people, we need fewer cars and vehicles on the street. You look back at pictures of New York from 100 years ago, and the sidewalks were wide. People kind of walked around the streets. You know, Park Avenue was a literal park. And as cars became more and more dominant, we took space from people and gave it to vehicles. And part of what we think about is how do we reclaim that space? How do we get space back for people? We've seen on 8th Avenue, the Department of Transportation has started creating wider sidewalks and filled immediately. You know, there's so much pedestrian traffic there that as soon as people have more space, they spread out and use it. But that means that we do have to reduce the number of cars on the street, especially in a place like Manhattan Midtown. You know, we're right by Canal street right here. [00:11:50] Speaker A: Right. [00:11:51] Speaker B: And so congestion pricing is one tool in the toolbox of how you sort of incentivize people not to drive as much. You know, some people need to drive. There's always going to be car trips happening. Maybe in some kind of ideal world, not. But generally, you know. But how do we get people to make other choices when they can, you know? [00:12:10] Speaker A: Right. [00:12:10] Speaker B: Midtown, Lower Manhattan, we have the best public transportation in the country, some of the best public transportation in the world. So most people can, you know, take a train to get here if they need to. Not everyone. So. But it's just like incentivizing people's choices and helping them make different choices. [00:12:28] Speaker A: Well, there's just so much. There's also so much controversy about, you know, congestion pricing, you know, and I was watching one of your videos, and I loved your. Your rebuttal, so to speak about. I think it was the governor in New Jersey was kind of anti. And tell them what you. You know, what he said. Do you remember? Do you know what I'm talking about? [00:12:48] Speaker B: I'm not sure. [00:12:48] Speaker A: He basically said, like, you know, it's just another tax or whatever, you know, and you said, well, you have tolls. It's the same thing, you know? [00:12:56] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:12:57] Speaker A: And I was like, what a great answer, you know, because he was kind of negating it. You're like, well, it's basically the same thing. It literally is, you know, I love that you said that. I was like, yeah, go sa. [00:13:07] Speaker B: It literally is a toll. It's under the same program that allows states across the country to use tolls on their road. The only difference is that it's what we call a cordon toll. So versus on a highway. You drive through the toll, you're going from one place to another. [00:13:22] Speaker A: Right. [00:13:22] Speaker B: This is just. You're coming in, so you pay the toll. [00:13:24] Speaker A: Right. [00:13:25] Speaker B: Otherwise, exactly the same. [00:13:27] Speaker A: Well, I think other major cities have had success around the world with congestion pricing. Like London, for instance. Correct. Yep. And other. You know, I did some research in other countries, other cities, large cities, too. [00:13:37] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:13:38] Speaker A: I can't remember the specific names right [00:13:39] Speaker B: now, but Singapore is another famous example where they've had a lot of success. But what we have seen in both of those cities is that if the fare or the toll is too low, people just sort of take it. It becomes the cost of their commute. So you kind of have to keep inching it up if you want to change behavior. So. [00:14:01] Speaker A: Interesting. [00:14:02] Speaker B: Yeah. That's accounted for in the law, but mostly it's kind of just with inflation. So one of the things that, you know, we are urging the city and the state to keep in mind is keep an eye on how many people are driving and you might need to change. I don't know if you remember, but when it first went into effect. [00:14:20] Speaker A: Yeah, I do. [00:14:21] Speaker B: In January of 2025, it was. There were no cars. You know, everyone was thinking, well, how is this going to work? What are we going to do? And then we've seen slowly. It's kind of come back to a lot of congestion. [00:14:31] Speaker A: And it's working, correct? [00:14:33] Speaker B: It's working for sure. [00:14:34] Speaker A: But isn't it funny when something's implemented that's different in a major city or any city or town, whatever, and just all of the hullabaloo about it, you know what I mean? And all the. Everybody's up in arms, you know, just give it some time. We'll see what happens, you know. Do you feel our new mayor, mom dummy is helping with this, too? Like, with his policies? [00:14:57] Speaker B: Yeah, he definitely is very aligned with us on this issue of, you know, reclaiming streets and spaces for people. He has announced a lot of bike lane projects, bus lane projects. You know, he. He has all these. They're doing a lot of watch parties for the World Cup. [00:15:16] Speaker A: Right. Yeah. [00:15:17] Speaker B: On open streets. So. So, yeah, in terms of these issues, he's been great. [00:15:22] Speaker A: Right. Because it does depend on who the mayor is or who is running the city. So I'm just curious, you know, because I don't know that much how to, you know, and have you spoken to him and things like that, too? [00:15:32] Speaker B: Yeah. So I will say the previous mayor, Eric Adams, was not so good in many ways, but on these issues, definitely. So he, early in his term, proposed some very good projects. And then as soon as there was even the slightest bit of political backlash from his donors, he stopped projects. So one of the things that Mayor Mandani has done is literally just restart projects that, you know, everything was ready to go, so shovels in the ground very quickly. So that's great. And then now he's starting to think about, you know, bolder new projects as well. Yeah, we. We definitely work closely with the Department of Transportation under Mayor Mamdani. You know, we're not going to agree on everything, and that's okay. [00:16:18] Speaker A: But politics. [00:16:19] Speaker B: Yeah, that's politics. [00:16:22] Speaker A: But as long as you can come together on the main things that are important to both of you. [00:16:25] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think they're. They're doing a really great job. I think many of the staff at DOT have been very excited to be empowered again by this mayor. [00:16:35] Speaker A: That's good to hear. That's good to hear. I think. I think he's doing a pretty good job. [00:16:38] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:16:39] Speaker A: So especially, it's interesting, you know, we have the. What's going on with the Knicks? We have this positivity with the mayor. I think it's a nice little era that this is becoming or getting into. So, for bicycles, too, how do you feel about city bikes and everything like that in the city here? [00:16:57] Speaker B: Well, love city bike, both as a concept and as a rider. [00:16:59] Speaker A: Right. And what is May. May is bicycle. [00:17:03] Speaker B: May was bicycle month. [00:17:04] Speaker A: Okay. Correct. Yeah. Every year. Right. Every year around the country, or is it just New York City? I'm just curious. [00:17:10] Speaker B: I think around the country. [00:17:11] Speaker A: Yeah, that's what I thought. [00:17:11] Speaker B: I'm not sure. [00:17:12] Speaker A: Just my future. Go ahead. Yeah, yeah, tell us about that, too. [00:17:16] Speaker B: Yeah. You know, but I think that the issue with biking in New York City is that many people don't feel safe. [00:17:22] Speaker A: Right, Correct. [00:17:23] Speaker B: It's chaotic out there on our streets. [00:17:26] Speaker A: I think it's a very fair point right there. [00:17:28] Speaker B: Ye. [00:17:28] Speaker A: Yeah. But go. [00:17:29] Speaker B: I. I didn't actually start biking in New York until the pandemic. [00:17:32] Speaker A: Me, too. [00:17:33] Speaker B: Yeah. And then everywhere quieter, you know. [00:17:36] Speaker A: Exactly. [00:17:36] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:17:37] Speaker A: Safer, you know. [00:17:38] Speaker B: Right. [00:17:38] Speaker A: So I rode my. I rode my bike everywhere I have a city bike right outside my apartment door. [00:17:42] Speaker B: Same. [00:17:42] Speaker A: And I. It's the beauty of New York, you know, and so, I mean, I rode my bike everywhere, you know, for. I loved it. [00:17:48] Speaker B: And are you still riding a lot? [00:17:50] Speaker A: Not really. And it's not because I don't enjoy it. I do love it. And like I said, growing up in Iowa, you know, we rode our bikes everywhere. I'm just getting a little bit older and my body's getting a little bit, you know, saying some things to me. That's the only. Yeah, that's the only reason. [00:18:05] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:18:06] Speaker A: You know? Yeah. [00:18:07] Speaker B: But so, you know, I started biking during the pandemic and became a confident biker, and now I love it. I got a cargo bike and would ride my son to school when he was still having me take him to school. Now he's too old. [00:18:19] Speaker A: How old are your kids? [00:18:20] Speaker B: Well, he's 12, so he's in middle school. [00:18:22] Speaker A: Older. At that age. Like. Like mom and dad. Don't talk to me. Don't embarrass me. [00:18:25] Speaker B: Yeah, he takes him. [00:18:25] Speaker A: But it's more fun for us to embarrass them now, too. [00:18:28] Speaker B: That's true. [00:18:28] Speaker A: Yeah, that's true. Yeah. [00:18:29] Speaker B: Yeah. No, I mean, just to go on that side note, you know, now he takes the city bus to school. My daughter takes the train to school. She's in Brooklyn. [00:18:38] Speaker A: Quick question. [00:18:39] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:18:39] Speaker A: And I, as a parent, what age do you let your child take the subway? I. I'm always so curious about this. Like, I always ask my friends, like, what do you know? I feel like I'd be a helicopter parent and so worried, like, how's it work? [00:18:52] Speaker B: I'm definitely not a helicopter parent, so I might be. I might be looser than some of your friends. [00:18:56] Speaker A: They're four. They're on. [00:18:57] Speaker B: No, but, you know, they went to elementary school in the neighborhood, so I started letting them walk themselves to school in like, fourth, fifth grade. So I guess, like around 10, and then riding the city bus around sixth grade. So maybe more like 10 or 11. And then my daughter started. She took art classes at the Art Institute Art Student League. And so she would take the one train down, starting when she was maybe 11. Yeah. [00:19:28] Speaker A: Wow. [00:19:28] Speaker B: And my son now takes the train, [00:19:30] Speaker A: and you're just like, see ya. [00:19:31] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:19:33] Speaker A: That's what I love, absolutely love about this city. You know, to be a New York parent. And you're like, oh, your kids are on the subway. I'll see them when they get home. You know, I think, you know, other. The rest of the country can't really understand that, you know, and I think it's really interesting and amazing about. That's another beautiful thing of this city. [00:19:52] Speaker B: Yeah, I absolutely love raising kids in New York City. I think it is so special. I mean, they just have opportunities I never had. You know, once I was older, growing up, it was like we moved and everything was car dependent. You had to drive everywhere. You know, until you get your license, you're totally dependent on your parents or on friends. Yeah. So my kids just, you know, my daughter, she, she goes to a Shazott school in Brooklyn. So she has friends who live all over the city, the Bronx, Staten island. You know, they're just hopping on the train to go see each other. They're meeting up in Bryant park, you know, to hang out. Oh, it's just amazing. [00:20:29] Speaker A: There's all these adults who live around the world that are terrified to come to New York and take the train. And then here's these kids taking it every day, like, like it's nothing. Which it is nothing. It's no big deal, you know, so that's a funny lesson. And do you take the train? I like to always like to ask women specifically, do you take the train? [00:20:43] Speaker B: Yeah, of course. Yeah. I mean I, I work right over here, but south of Canal, so I take the train to work. I take the train everywhere. Yeah, I, I mean, honestly, even aside from my job, obviously working the way I do, you know, you kind of got to avoid the cars. Yeah, I, I hate going in cars around this city. [00:21:01] Speaker A: Oh, the. So much slower. [00:21:03] Speaker B: It gets so slow. It's so much slower. [00:21:05] Speaker A: A taxi. No, it's too slow. [00:21:06] Speaker B: It's too slow. [00:21:07] Speaker A: Watching the money go up, you're like, let me out, I'm going to walk. [00:21:11] Speaker B: Yeah, I get carsick. No, I hate it. Yeah, I mostly take the train. I love the bus for shorter trips. I love to take a city bike. I'm a walker. Whenever I can walk, I'll walk. [00:21:23] Speaker A: Yeah, I think it's, I think it's, you know, I haven't driven since I moved here. [00:21:26] Speaker B: Oh, wow. [00:21:27] Speaker A: You know, almost 15 years ago. [00:21:28] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:21:29] Speaker A: And now I'm getting older. Time flu. My license is spended because I didn't realize I had to rewrite, you know, but I don't need it. [00:21:35] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:21:35] Speaker A: You know, I mean, I can read, I can go redo it anytime. But I have to start like a 14 year old, you know, and drive with my mom and dad who don't live here, you know what I mean? Like, things like that. But you know what I Mean, like, I don't need it. I truly don't need it. And I take. And I have a tour business, and I take people on the subway everywhere. I take. Take it on my first day because you can learn it with me. But I also teach people how to utilize the bus, too. It's so easier above ground. I can see the cherry blossoms in Central park and up off. [00:21:59] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:21:59] Speaker A: You know, blah, blah. [00:22:00] Speaker B: Yeah. I love the bus for that reason. You're more enmeshed in the city, you know, as you go along. I also think the bus ridership is slightly different. You get a lot more older people because it's. It's more accessible. You know, so many subway stations if you have a walker or a wheelchair, you can't use. So I always kind of like, you know, sitting on the bus and seeing, especially on the Upper west side, maybe, you know, the older ladies with their walker, and that's how they can get around. So I love the bus. [00:22:27] Speaker A: I love that too. You know, I want to pivot real quick to the trash on the streets. You know, that. That can be a problem. How do you feel about that, you know, with the people, you know, open streets, people walking through and everything? Yeah, trying to. [00:22:41] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, I don't know what it was like in Iowa, but I. You know, I mean, especially when I lived in Chicago. Chicago, they have alleys. Like, you never saw trash, you know, put the trash in the dumpster in the alley, the garbage truck came through. When I first moved to New York, I was baffled, you know, that we could just live with these huge mountains of garbage on the sidewalks all the time. I understand it. You know, logistically, it's challenging. But we have been advocating for. For many years and supportive of the city's efforts to containerize trash again. Even that, though, like, I can acknowledge it's very complicated. You know, when you talk about a very dense neighborhood and big buildings, they produce a lot of trash. But I'm excited to see the city starting to pilot the trash containers in the curb lane. And something we talk a lot about at open plans is the use of that curb lane. So, you know, what some people might think of as the parking lane, you know, where mostly in New York City, it's just cars parked, and mostly it's cars parked for free. So 3 million free on street parking spaces in New York City. And when you think about it, if you said, I've got a lot of extra stuff, it's taken up a lot of room in my apartment, I'm gonna get a little Storage locker and put it in the curb and keep my stuff there for free. No, you cannot do that. The only piece of personal property you can store on the street is a car. Lots of people don't have cars, so. Yeah, me too. Yeah. [00:24:09] Speaker A: So it's like, too much. [00:24:10] Speaker B: Yeah. So it's not. It's public space that's not being used for the public good. [00:24:15] Speaker A: Right, I agree. [00:24:16] Speaker B: Yeah. And so one of the uses that we think is better is to put these trash containers there. [00:24:21] Speaker A: 100% agree. [00:24:22] Speaker B: And so then you get the trash off the sidewalk, it's also contained. And so you're not putting out a feast for rats every night. [00:24:29] Speaker A: Those cute little rats. [00:24:32] Speaker B: So lots of benefits of it. And I think, you know, we worked really hard on. The first pilot was in Harlem, Morningside Heights area. And we pushed really hard for that. And then right when they were starting to put it in, we did some community surveys. The DOT did some. And there were definitely some people who were very skeptical. Right. Oh, no, you're taking away parking. How's this gonna work? But it has become really popular. [00:25:02] Speaker A: Nice. [00:25:02] Speaker B: People like to see their streets cleaner. [00:25:04] Speaker A: We do. You know, I mean, I see it. I live up in Washington Heights, and I see it's piled and piled. But one thing I do have to say, it's not like it's disgusting. And I don't want to give the people the image from what I'm saying that it's just piled and it's all loose trash. It is nicely tidy. [00:25:20] Speaker B: Bagged. [00:25:20] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, it's nicely bagged. It's separated according to whatever. So it is nicely, you know, put in garbage bags. But it is still big, big piles of it. Like we saw with the snow this last year. [00:25:35] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh. [00:25:35] Speaker A: And cars stuck in the snow on the streets and snow out of the garbage. It was insane. [00:25:41] Speaker B: It was crazy. I know. And they couldn't collect the garbage for a couple weeks. Oh, my gosh. That started to get. [00:25:46] Speaker A: I've never seen that since I lived here. [00:25:48] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. But it was to get a little crazy. [00:25:50] Speaker A: Snowy, snowy winter. It was, you know, it was pretty rough. [00:25:53] Speaker B: Yeah. Those giant piles of snow at the corners. I almost want to, like, sled down them. Yeah, they were pretty dirty. [00:26:00] Speaker A: I mean, I would see bicycles that were chained to, you know, posts on the sidewalk, like, appear. [00:26:06] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:26:06] Speaker A: Like after a month, you know, you'd even know they were there. And they're all, like, just all ruined, too. It was crazy. It was crazy. Sarah, let's talk about low traffic neighborhoods. How do you Feel about this. [00:26:17] Speaker B: Yeah. This is one of our very active campaigns at Open Plans right now. And we developed it because we started to think about, you know, what I talked about earlier. How do we reduce driving, how do we get people to choose other modes of transportation when they can. And we did a lot of research practices used around the world. There's so many different things that cities use, but one of them that cities around the world have been using really effectively is what is called low traffic neighborhoods. And basically what this means is that within maybe a 10 square block area, you just make some street design changes that make it so that you can't drive through the neighborhood. I love that you can drive anywhere in the neighborhood you need to go, but you can't drive through. And so when you think about, for example, Waze, you know, that's always trying to find you the fastest route. [00:27:08] Speaker A: Correct. [00:27:08] Speaker B: And sometimes it's taken you weird places and suddenly you're going down a residential street for unclear reasons. So we call that cut through driving. In London, they actually call it rat running. [00:27:21] Speaker A: Oh, really? [00:27:21] Speaker B: Which I kind of love. But you know, we have enough rats running around in New York, so we don't want to get confused. [00:27:26] Speaker A: Exactly. My first thought is, you know, what a New Yorker would think, right? Yeah. [00:27:31] Speaker B: But, yeah, so we call it cut through traffic. People driving through your neighborhood that have no reason to be there, they're not coming to someone's house, they're not, you know, an electrician coming to do work, they're not going to shop at a local business, they're just driving through. And so we can prevent that by it's things like you have to make a left turn here, the road direction changes. You know, it's two one way streets that are opposing, you know. Yeah, like, like diverters that you put in so that you have to turn, you can put in a plaza block, you know, next to a school or something. And so what we really like about it is that again, it preserves people's ability to drive. You know, a lot of what we get in these sort of culture wars around bike lanes and whatever else is people saying, I have to drive, you know, I have, I have to take my grandma to the hospital. I have to, you know, my, you know, super needs to be able to drive and park, whatever, so you still can, you know. And also, if you live in that neighborhood, your neighborhood's gonna be nicer. [00:28:29] Speaker A: Right. [00:28:30] Speaker B: The streets are quieter. [00:28:31] Speaker A: Right. [00:28:31] Speaker B: The air is cleaner. Yeah. The streets are safer. The air is cleaner. People we see in cities that have implemented These people start walking more, they start biking more, because it feels better. You know, there's even research that shows that, that when there's less traffic on a street, people know their neighbors more. You know, active mobility goes up. So we've actually seen, you know, rates of obesity go down in places that have low traffic neighborhoods. [00:28:58] Speaker A: Makes sense. [00:28:59] Speaker B: In low traffic neighborhoods that are built around commercial corridors, business improves, people are lingering and shopping more. So we think it's a really amazing solution. Hasn't been done in New York City yet. So we've been doing a lot of public education, a lot of outreach, working with communities to identify areas where it might make sense. And we're hopeful that we're going to start to see them implemented soon. [00:29:23] Speaker A: You know, as you're speaking, you know, you're talking about the, you know, what's specifically what it's called. What's it called again? [00:29:28] Speaker B: Cut through traffic. [00:29:29] Speaker A: Yeah, you know, so I, I'm envisioning my neighborhood, you know, if there was a nice walk, you know, walk kind of in my neighborhood in blocks, and how I would be outside enjoying the weather, you know, going for a walk and. Yeah, I would love that. You know, I definitely would love that. It actually makes me think in a. A sense which is different, but the High Line too, you know, this beautiful space that's created for people to, in that neighborhood, the Chelsea neighborhood, to walk and. Yeah, it's not really a traffic, I guess. Well, that was a railway. But still it's same idea in a sense. [00:29:59] Speaker B: And similar Broadway, you know, from sort of Flatiron to Columbus Circle changes they've made there actually are generally a low traffic neighborhood would be broader than just one corridor, one street. But Broadway does do that in a lot of places. There's different sections of it where suddenly you can't drive down it, you know, and so then people do still drive on it in places where they're allowed to, but fewer because it's not going to let them go so easily where they need to go. [00:30:27] Speaker A: Right. So I think, I think there were plans to do that on Fifth Avenue. I'm not sure. [00:30:35] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:30:35] Speaker A: Do you know much about that? [00:30:37] Speaker B: Fifth Avenue in Manhattan, Correct. Yeah. [00:30:39] Speaker A: Yes. [00:30:39] Speaker B: Yeah, they're going to be widening sidewalks there, hopefully. [00:30:42] Speaker A: Nice. [00:30:43] Speaker B: So not full low traffic neighborhood treatment, but similar to what I was saying about 8 Avenue, these places where there's just so many people walking around. [00:30:51] Speaker A: You know, I mean, I think of [00:30:52] Speaker B: the theater district, you think of Rockefeller center, there's just so many people and they need more space. [00:30:58] Speaker A: Well, Fifth Avenue at Christmas time is. Is a nightmare. [00:31:03] Speaker B: Chaos. [00:31:03] Speaker A: I mean, it is shoulder to shoulder, you know, from Central park down to Rockefeller center, you know, down to 42nd, you know, it's. It's crazy. [00:31:12] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:31:12] Speaker A: And I, you know, and I was, I. I can't even talk right now, but I was under the impression they were going to, you know, whiting the sidewalks, like we're just talking about. And. And, you know, put doing something that center of Fifth Avenue, too, to make it a walkway. But I could be mistaken. [00:31:29] Speaker B: They're going to be doing something like that on Park Avenue. [00:31:31] Speaker A: Oh, that. So I'm getting them confused. Okay. [00:31:35] Speaker B: So I mentioned earlier, Park Avenue used to actually have a huge park down the middle of it. They narrowed it. Now it's really just a. It's like some plantings, you know. [00:31:43] Speaker A: Exactly. [00:31:43] Speaker B: So they're going to reclaim that space again and make it a little linear park through the middle of Park Avenue. [00:31:48] Speaker A: Yeah, I love that. You know, and to see the old photos or renderings or paintings of Park Avenue 100 years ago, it is truly stunning. [00:31:56] Speaker B: Beautiful. [00:31:56] Speaker A: You know, and it makes me sad that as we became more modern, we felt, oh, let's make it more for traffic. [00:32:03] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:32:03] Speaker A: You know, that's so. [00:32:04] Speaker B: I think something too, that a lot of people don't realize is how intentional those choices were because of the car industry. You know, we used to have streetcars in cities all over America. Small cities even, you know, had lovely streetcar systems. And one of the things that the auto industry actually did was buy the companies that ran the streetcars and get rid of them. [00:32:29] Speaker A: Wow. [00:32:30] Speaker B: To get rid of their competition. So, you know, it just. It doesn't have to be this way. And I think, yeah, our mission is to make it more people centered, kind of take on the car industry. [00:32:44] Speaker A: I love that. So I think. I can't wait for. Just to see these changes happen, because I would love to see that in my neighborhood, because I don't think there's anything like that where I live in upper Manhattan, in my neighborhood at all. Nothing whatsoever. [00:32:58] Speaker B: Yeah. One of the things we've advocated for is that Broadway change I was talking about goes to Columbus Circle, but Broadway goes all the way up this line of Manhattan. How about we extend some of those treatments all the way up? [00:33:09] Speaker A: You know, that's a good point. People don't realize that. I'll say I'm walking on Broadway. People instantly think of the theater district where it starts at the very berry bottom of Manhattan. You know, it. I say it all the time. [00:33:22] Speaker B: Battery. [00:33:23] Speaker A: There you go. Battery park, which they're redoing right now, too. And then all the way up to the tippy top of Manhattan at Inwood, and then up to upstate New York, actually. So people don't realize how long Broadway is. So when New Yorkers talk about Broadway, we're talking about not the theater district most of the time. [00:33:39] Speaker B: You know, the broad city walk people take. People go and walk all the way down Broadway from the tip of Manhattan to the Battery. [00:33:47] Speaker A: Oh, do they really? [00:33:48] Speaker B: Yeah, I haven't done it. [00:33:49] Speaker A: It's on my list. Oh, I. You know what? I think it was just last. A couple weeks ago, people were doing that too. I think it's an annual event. [00:33:55] Speaker B: Oh, maybe people do it. And actually Mayor Mamdani did it. [00:33:58] Speaker A: It. [00:33:58] Speaker B: Oh, pain trail as well. [00:34:00] Speaker A: Oh, did he really? Yeah, yeah, that's. I think. Yeah. Now I do remember. That's pretty cool. My friend Jen, she just did. I think they do it from the very tippy top at the beginning, top down to the bottom, and then they walk back. Oh. So I think it's like 25 miles. Yeah. You know, and I, They. She asked me to do it. I'm like, no. Yeah. [00:34:19] Speaker B: You know, I gotta get my body ready. You know, I feel like do a little more working out before I can do it. [00:34:24] Speaker A: I ride a bike. [00:34:25] Speaker B: Yeah, right, exactly. [00:34:27] Speaker A: You know. Okay, Sarah, let's talk about outdoor dining. How do you feel about that? I'm going to tell you how I feel about it too, but go ahead. [00:34:35] Speaker B: Well, I love it. I think it was one of the silver linings of the pandemic that we got to experience this thing that so many people in European cities, for example, have these amazing places to eat outside. And before the pandemic, there was a sidewalk cafe program. So there were some restaurants. Yeah, sidewalk cafes. But it was very limited and very small. So obviously that exploded during the pandemic. Obviously there were a lot of problems. You know, it was a sort of impromptu program with very few rules and regulations, and I think led some people to dislike the program. And so we were, you know, one of the key organizations that advocated to make the program permanent to allow restaurants to have this kind of curbside dining all the time. And we did get that. But one of the things that happened was when the city council passed that bill, they said you can only have the restaurants during basically spring, summer, fall. So restaurants. Now, if they want to have the curbside dining, they have to build a structure in the spring. [00:35:42] Speaker A: Correct. [00:35:43] Speaker B: And then take it down in the fall. And then. And this is really the most important part. Have a place to store it. [00:35:49] Speaker A: Correct. [00:35:50] Speaker B: If you've ever been inside a New York City restaurant, you know, there is not a lot of space. So the vast majority of restaurants who participated in the program no longer participate. And really what you get is it's mostly just big restaurants, chain restaurants, you know, some of the restaurant group kind of restaurants. And we actually have recently done an analysis of it, and, you know, it's almost exclusively in downtown Brooklyn and Manhattan. And it is. The vast majority of them are in council districts where the average income is 100,000 or higher there. [00:36:22] Speaker A: Jeez. [00:36:23] Speaker B: So, yeah. [00:36:24] Speaker A: So why. Why not in the winter? Can they. You know what I mean? [00:36:29] Speaker B: So cynically, and I think this is right. I think the council did that because they knew it would shrink the program and there were loud constituents who didn't like it. The frustrating thing is that a lot of people didn't love the pandemic era program because they thought there were rats. You know, some of the structures were ugly. You know, they weren't well taken care of. And that's all fair. [00:36:54] Speaker A: Correct. Agreed. [00:36:55] Speaker B: The thing is, is that when we implemented the permanent program, it came with a lot of regulations. So now, for example. Yeah. Now the structures have to have movable floors. A lot of the rats came because these structures were there for a long time and they would build their little permanent little homes. [00:37:11] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:37:11] Speaker B: And so that doesn't happen anymore. The structures have movable floors. Restaurants are responsible for cleaning out underneath. There's rules around traps also. You know, some of those structures became like buildings. And, you know, I don't love that either. Right. Like, we want our. The point of it is to feel like people have kind of spilled onto the street to build community. If it's just another building, that's not really the point. [00:37:36] Speaker A: Right. [00:37:37] Speaker B: But under the new regulations, you know, they can't have those four permanent walls. It's really more just like a little space where you can have tables. So I think we solved a lot of the problems from the pandemic era program and then created this new really bad problem with the seasonal program. [00:37:53] Speaker A: Right. You know, I've heard all the arguments against it. I. I'm. I'm all for it. I thought. I love sitting outside. I love the. The sheds or whatever they're called. I feel like it actually brought the restaurants more business, you know? You know, more revenue. Who doesn't want these mom PA restaurants to make more money? [00:38:12] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:38:13] Speaker A: Who doesn't want that? You know, Know, I mean, as far as the rats I. You know, I. I think, like you said, they had the movable floors or whatever you said, you know. Yeah. I just. I didn't understand why they had to take it down. Thank you for answering that for me. [00:38:28] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:38:29] Speaker A: Because I'm like, I don't understand why they're there for three. Three seasons of the year, then they take it away. I know some people were saying it's. It took away parking spaces, too. Well, I really don't care about that. [00:38:39] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:38:41] Speaker A: You know, I truly don't. You know, I don't have a car, but, you know, I mean, who doesn't want. I love outside dining. I just. I just feel like, bottom line for me, I want the business, which are. You know, most of them are not chains. They're mom pa. You know, mom Pa owned restaurants, and I want them to make more money. And that's what it's all about for me, in my opinion. [00:39:01] Speaker B: And more jobs. [00:39:01] Speaker A: More jobs, exactly. [00:39:04] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. It actually saved an analysis with something like a hundred thousand jobs during the pandemic were saved because of outdoor dining. Because. Because in that moment, a lot of restaurants wouldn't have been able to be open at all because they couldn't serve people inside. [00:39:18] Speaker A: Correct. I remember. I mean. [00:39:23] Speaker B: But yeah, also, I agree with all of that. And also, like I said, I think there's something really special about walking down the street and seeing people. It's like a cool evening and you're having a glass of wine, and on the Upper west side, I always say, it's kind of a small town. There's so many times I've been walking down the street and I see someone I know eating outside, and you. You get to just sort of say, hey. And it doesn't have to be a thing, you know, but you just kind of say, hey, have a little chat and go on your way. [00:39:49] Speaker A: It's a really nice community, you know, I love it. It's. It's a sense of community in the neighborhood. I love the Upper west side. You know, one of my best friends, Jen, lives on the Upper west side at. Well, I'm not gonna say where now. I just said her name, but she lives on it, you know, And I'm always up there when I live above it, too. [00:40:06] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:40:07] Speaker A: And sometimes I'll take the bus from Washington Heights straight down the Upper west side. It'll take me all the way down. I mean. I mean, I love the bus. Speaking of public transportation and everything, I love it. But, yeah, the Upper west side, you know, I didn't realize the Upper west side has, population wise, is like over 200,000. [00:40:22] Speaker B: Yes. [00:40:23] Speaker A: That's amazing. [00:40:24] Speaker B: It's one of the densest neighborhoods in the country. [00:40:27] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:40:28] Speaker B: I think only compared to maybe down here. [00:40:30] Speaker A: Really? Yeah, Yeah. I heard, I was watching one of your videos. I'm like, I know, you were teaching me things. I was like, this is amazing. I had no idea. And I think the Upper west side, you know, has some of the most beautiful brownstones. [00:40:42] Speaker B: Oh, beautiful architecture. [00:40:43] Speaker A: Stunning, aren't they? [00:40:44] Speaker B: Absolutely. And then we have the parks, Riverside park and Central Park. I know we've got Lincoln Center. [00:40:50] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:40:51] Speaker B: We've got the Natural History Museum, you know, as we like to call it, the Upper Best side. [00:40:57] Speaker A: I do too. I do too. Upper Best. I've said that too. You know, I wanted to ask you earlier too, and I, you know, we have to end the podcast, but what made you interested in urban policy and urban planning and everything? I was going to ask you earlier and I think it's interesting. I want to hear what you have to say. [00:41:15] Speaker B: Yeah, great question. So I think there's a broader point, which is I was interested in politics and I was interested in federal politics, and I realized, oh, it's so intractable, it's so impossible. Local politics is where you can make change. It impacts people's daily life in such an impactful way. But also, when I first moved to New York, my children were very little. I had my daughter on a, you know, a little scooter and my son in the stroller. And we got the green light and we went to cross and a cab just took the left, you know, just so fast. I mean, came, you know, within a foot of the stroller and I just was like, what is going on on these streets? You know? And then I had a friend who was involved in the movement and she said, you know, we're working to make our streets safer so you feel like you can let your kids walk around when they're 11. And she hooked me in and I saw how important it is. And I do often think of the work through a child lens, through making the city a place where we do feel comfortable letting our kids, you know, run around and where they're gonna feel welcomed. You know, it's kind of, kind of a child sized, child centered city. I think is a city that then all of us are gonna love. [00:42:40] Speaker A: Oh, that's wonderful. And also, I want to ask, I like, you know, we talked about the subway earlier and just, you know, you know, what is a, you know, a common reoccurring subject is the safety of New York City. As a woman, how do you feel in New York City walking around with your children in Central Park? And how do you feel? [00:43:01] Speaker B: I feel totally safe. And I think, you know, the evidence backs that up. It's the safest major city in America. I think, you know, as anywhere, you have to be smart. [00:43:12] Speaker A: Correct. [00:43:13] Speaker B: You know, you have to make smart choices about when and where maybe you walk. But, yeah, I've. I've never really felt unsafe here. Maybe. Maybe very slightly at certain moments during the height of the pandemic, you know, when it felt like. Like there were fewer people around. [00:43:29] Speaker A: Oh, good point. [00:43:30] Speaker B: You know, what you get is when there's those eyes on the street, enough people around it just like someone's always looking out for you. [00:43:36] Speaker A: Wonderful. You know, I think it's important for other women to hear how women feel, you know, because, you know, we get a lot of negativity about this city, and I. Yeah. You know, I like to use, you know, the podcast as a voice to tell people that this city is amazing and amazing women such as yourself to let other women know, too. So thank you for that. That. That's amazing. Sarah, I have some quick fire questions. You ready? [00:43:57] Speaker B: Yep. [00:43:58] Speaker A: Favorite NYC neighborhood. [00:44:00] Speaker B: Upper west side. [00:44:00] Speaker A: You were going to say that. Favorite way to get around the city. [00:44:04] Speaker B: Walking. [00:44:04] Speaker A: Walking. [00:44:05] Speaker B: Nice. [00:44:06] Speaker A: Favorite New York park? [00:44:08] Speaker B: Riverside Park. [00:44:09] Speaker A: Oh, nice. [00:44:10] Speaker B: Not as many tourists. [00:44:11] Speaker A: Yeah. Good night. Very nice. Favorite local restaurant or food spot. [00:44:16] Speaker B: There's so many. [00:44:17] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:44:19] Speaker B: Since my kids were very little, we've been going to Five Napkin Burger, so. Holds a little special place in my heart. And it's around the corner. [00:44:26] Speaker A: I do love that place. I've been there often. Yeah, there's one down in Hell's Kitchen. [00:44:31] Speaker B: Okay. [00:44:31] Speaker A: I go there all the time on 9th Avenue and. Yeah, like 42nd or something like that. Best view in New York City. [00:44:42] Speaker B: Oh, wow. I'm going to say from Sheep's Meadow. I love looking at the skyscrapers. [00:44:48] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:44:49] Speaker B: You're in this beautiful place, and then you see the city. I love the dichotomy. And I will say I am a person who loves skyscrapers. I think they're just a testament to what people can do. [00:45:01] Speaker A: Right. Nice, nice, nice, nice. Coffee or tea? [00:45:06] Speaker B: Tea. [00:45:07] Speaker A: Subway or city bike? [00:45:09] Speaker B: You can't make me choose Subway because I do like to read on the train, so it's a little special time. [00:45:16] Speaker A: Very good. A place every tourist should visit in New York City. [00:45:20] Speaker B: Ooh, Dittmer's Park. [00:45:26] Speaker A: I haven't been there. [00:45:28] Speaker B: I just tell people, get out of Manhattan. You know. Yeah, get out of Manhattan. There's so many vibrant cultural neighborhoods in this city. You gotta go see them. [00:45:38] Speaker A: You know, I'm gonna go there after this podcast. And then three words that describe New York City. Just three random words you can think of. [00:45:47] Speaker B: Eclectic, buzzing kind. [00:45:51] Speaker A: Perfect. Okay, Sarah, before we let you go, we here at the New Yorkers Podcast want to know what it means to you, Sarah Lind, to be a New Yorker. [00:46:02] Speaker B: I think a New Yorker is anyone who chooses to be here. Whether again, you've grown up here and you've chosen to stay or you've come and chosen it as your home. And someone who believes in the value of the city, you know, it's a very special place. I think it brings people together in a way that almost nowhere else in the world does. And I will close on one of my favorite quotes from John Updike, that the true New Yorker believes anyone living anywhere else must be, in some sense, kidding. [00:46:39] Speaker A: Oh my gosh, I never heard that. I love that. What a great way to end the podcast. Sarah, you're a joy to talk with. So. [00:46:46] Speaker B: You too. [00:46:46] Speaker A: So thank you. This was fun. And if you ever want to come back again and chat on the couch, I'd love to with you. [00:46:53] Speaker B: So thanks for having me. [00:46:55] Speaker A: Sarah, thank you for joining us today for this week's episode of the New Yorkers Podcast. Why don't you let everyone know where they can find you on social media. [00:47:03] Speaker B: So I on Twitter amaraklind and Open Plans is @openplans on Twitter and Instagram I believe and openplans.org is our website. [00:47:13] Speaker A: Very nice. Once again everyone, I'm your host, Kelly Kopp, also known as New York City Cop across all my social media. [00:47:21] Speaker B: Please like and subscribe to the New Yorkers Podcast and you can follow the New Yorkers on social media at the [00:47:27] Speaker A: New Yorkers Podcast you can leave a rating or a comment to let us know how you are enjoying the show. My friends, we read through all your comments and DMs, so please, please, we would love to hear from you. Thank you Cheryl Amaya, Gene Fleming and Avon Capel for your kind words on the last episode. If you want to be featured at the end of an episode, leave a rating on Apple Podcasts or a comment on Spotify. [00:47:50] Speaker B: Yeah, and thank you CB Homie, New York, Charlene and Rafa, New York for your comments on Facebook. [00:47:57] Speaker A: Have a lovely day everybody and we'll see you next time. [00:47:59] Speaker B: Goodbye. This is the last stop on this train, everyone. [00:48:06] Speaker A: Please leave the train. Thank you for riding with mta, New York City Transit.